A few questions about the bus service in Finland

petrotrain · 29 Elokuu 2012

Tervetuloa! I'm write in English, because I'm don't speak Finnish & translate through google-translate is will be a lot of mistakes (Suomen kiele is a very complex)...
I'm work in the Petroskoi linja-autoasema & I'm interests about bus transport in the neighboring country.

This is my questions:
1) In the Russia there is a division of bus transportation on the urban, suburban & long-distance buses ruotes. Urban routes within the one settlement (analogue of the Finnish kunta), Suburban routes within of 50 km between two boarding of settlements, Long-distance buses has over 50 km between two boarding of settlements. Is there such of division in Finland? Judging by the fares on the matkahuolto.fi is not of this divisions.

2) In some Finland cities (usually biggest: Oulu, Turku, Tampere, Helsinki) fare city is a lower than 3.20euro (6km zone fare). And some Finland cities (Joensuu such as) fare in the city buses is 3.20euro, according to official fares. What is that? How and for what reasons set reduced fares on city routes?

3) Whether there are bus routes on which the sale of tickets is without of seat (as on city routes on example)? What is the maximum distance allowed is open bus routes without seats? In Russia without seats allowed open bus routes in city & suburbs has 50 km city board over. More than 50 km zone bus route is a long-distance route & sales on this bus route within seats only.

4) In a Internet online bus schedule for the bus stations in a tabular form? (As train schedules on rautatieasema on the vr.fi). Interest specifically Joensuu.

Kiitos for you answers.:smile:

P.S. If you are interested in transport Petroskoi, Russian Karjala or North-West Russia write for me. I will to answer for you questions (but Suomen kiele knows only one transport fan :smile

. If the Petroskoi going to visit, you can contact me - tell me about transportation in our city and region. If possible, can took on Kivach waterfall and Kondopoga city

hmikko · 29 Elokuu 2012

1. In Finland, the municipalities design and manage the local bus routes. Most of these don't extend to neighboring municipalities, but in some cases, the agency that manages public transportation is a joint one between several municipalities. This is the case in the capital region, where Helsinki Regional Transport Authority (Finnish acronym HSL for "Helsingin seudun liikenne") includes seven member municipalities. HSL is currently in the process of moving to a zone-based pricing similar to e.g. Stockholm, but currently the ticket prices depend on whether the trip crosses the borders of a municipality. There is a "local", within-municipality ticket and a more expensive "regional" ticket (I guess similarly to the Russian system). For a bus from Helsinki to Espoo on a HSL bus you'd need the regional ticket, even though the trip may be a lot shorter than one within Helsinki.

Other larger cities, such as Turku, have just recently started a transport authority organization that includes the surrounding municipalities. At the same time, the Finnish state is about to start a major reform of the municipalities themselves, and in the lead-up to that, many municipalities have merged with their neighbors. In many places, the borders of the municipality will include a very large area. E.g. Oulu is on its way to include all of the municipalities that were its neighbors ten years ago.

Matkahuolto is a service company owned by a union of the long-distance bus operator companies. Matkahuolto manages the pricing, ticketing and parcel service on the long-distance buses, whereas the buses themselves are operated by different private companies. It's effectively a publicly sanctioned cartel, and up to this year, there has been effectively no ticket price competition between the operators. This year, a discount bus operator named Onnibus started traffic. Onnibus operates outside of the Matkahuolto cartel and in many cases is not allowed to use the bus stations in cities. Their pricing is similar to discount airlines in that seats are available at different prices, with a limited number of very cheap tickets available in a web store only. Tickets bought from the bus driver can cost substantially more.

2. The fares are set separately by each municipality (in some cases via the joint authority such as HSL). The price level depends on the amount of subsidy that the municipality has decided to spend on public transport, and the operation costs and the income from tickets, of course. There are various types of discounted tickets for frequent users, monthly or yearly transport passes etc. The discount is often quite substantial. Hardly anyone who uses HSL's services to commute to work every day pays the single ticket prices.

3. Long-distance bus tickets always include a seat, at least if bought before the trip. I don't think it's legal to carry standee passengers on long-distance buses (someone on the forum can correct me on this). In local traffic, the ticket price is the same for everyone, and whether you get a seat or not depends on the level of crowding. It's up to the driver how many people he or she allows on the bus. There are regulations about the maximum number, but of course, it's difficult for a driver to know exactly how many people there are.

4. Not sure. See

http://matkahuolto.fi/en/

Onnibus is at http://www.onnibus.fi/, but their pages seems to be in Finnish only.

By the way, it's "suomen kieli" with an 'i' at the end. In Finnish, the name of the country is written with a capital letter ("Suomi"), but the name of the language is not ("suomen kieli" or "suomi").

petrotrain · 29 Elokuu 2012

Kiitos, hmikko!

There is a "local", within-municipality ticket and a more expensive "regional" ticket (I guess similarly to the Russian system).

Yes, in the Russia this system. But single tickets only. Discount tickets "city+region" in soviet time (before 1991) was in Moscow & Leningrad (Pietari). In this cities this system is work at this time in a reduced form. In other cities discount system were separately "city only" & "region only". Discount system in many cities discount system is not preserved. For example: In the Russian Karjala discount systems preserve in Petroskoi (260000 inh.) city trolleybus system only, In Lahdenpohja (7800 inh.) - on city bus, Kostamus (28000 inh.) - city municipal bus only. In other 10 Karjalan cities single fare only.

I don't think it's legal to carry standee passengers on long-distance buses (someone on the forum can correct me on this).

I think so too. Even in Russia, it is forbidden, and in the North-West Russia rather strictly enforced, in Finland with its experience in transportation security - much more serious.

Long-distance bus tickets always include a seat, at least if bought before the trip

From what distance to include seats in bus necessarily or its not installed?

http://www.matkahuolto.info/lippu/en/connection?departureId=8208
Joensuu, bus station (16:00) - Nurmes (18:30)
Departure Service Operator
local service 16:00 Joensuu - Eno - Lieksa--Nurmes Pohjolan Matka (Pohjolan Turistiauto Oy)
Days of operation Sun Sundays
Valid indefinitely

This bus include seats for example?

By the way, it's "suomen kieli" with an 'i' at the end. In Finnish, the name of the country is written with a capital letter ("Suomi"), but the name of the language is not ("suomen kieli" or "suomi").

I'm sorry. I will know.

ultrix · 29 Elokuu 2012

petrotrain sanoi:
From what distance to include seats in bus necessarily or its not installed?

This bus include seats for example?

I'm not sure if I understood you completely but:

every bus in Finland includes seats, perhaps with the exception of airport terminal buses which operate only within airport premises
reserving a seat is never mandatory on any bus, only on long-distance trains (all but regional trains, which marked in timetables with H-prefix).

hmikko · 29 Elokuu 2012

I did a bit of googling, and apparently it is legal to carry standees even in long-distance traffic. Bus operators are allowed to exceed the rated number of passengers by 30 %, so a long-distance bus that is rated for 50 seated passengers and zero standing passengers, can still legally carry 15 standees. The speed is limited to 80 km/h in this case. On the other hand, the law requires the passengers to use seat belts if seat belts have been installed on the bus. The two rules are in conflict, since the standees obviously can't use seat belts.

ultrix · 29 Elokuu 2012

petrotrain sanoi:
This is my questions:
1) In the Russia there is a division of bus transportation on the urban, suburban & long-distance buses ruotes. Urban routes within the one settlement (analogue of the Finnish kunta), Suburban routes within of 50 km between two boarding of settlements, Long-distance buses has over 50 km between two boarding of settlements. Is there such of division in Finland? Judging by the fares on the matkahuolto.fi is not of this divisions.

Larger cities are responsible for bus transport within their own area (and HRT in the whole capital area covering the area from west in Порккала-удд till east in Сёдеркулла), the transitional period of "old system" which was based on proprietary and exclusive, private bus company -planned routes and timetables will end between 2014 and 2019 depending on the region.
In the future, the municipal planning-based model used in Гелсингфорсъ, Таммерфорсъ and Або city transit will most likely be implemented in many other bigger cities as well as in regional traffic in regions Tampere/Tammerfors, Turku/Åbo, Oulu/Uleåborg, Jyväskylä, Lahti, Kuopio, Joensuu, Pori/Björneborg and Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus, where the central city will cater to the needs of the whole urban region.
The other possible model in local and regional transport is concession model, where the government will issue a charter through competition, where the lowest-costing bid with the best level of service will be granted the exclusive rights on certain routes or areas
In the long-distance transport, the markets will be free within a few years (on some routes it is already, and Onnibus is operating on these routes). During the transitional period the same rules apply to both local, regional and long-distance trips and "everything" is under Matkahuolto's umbrella (except the three big cities, Onnibus and VR of course).

petrotrain sanoi:
2) In some Finland cities (usually biggest: Oulu, Turku, Tampere, Helsinki) fare city is a lower than 3.20euro (6km zone fare). And some Finland cities (Joensuu such as) fare in the city buses is 3.20euro, according to official fares. What is that? How and for what reasons set reduced fares on city routes?

See above: the three biggest cities plan their own fares and lines without need to cater to Matkahuolto tariffs, and even some other cities with a Matkahuolto-allied private operator have made contracts with the local government that their ticket is cheaper, valid for an hour, valid in entire city etc.

petrotrain sanoi:
4) In a Internet online bus schedule for the bus stations in a tabular form? (As train schedules on rautatieasema on the vr.fi). Interest specifically Joensuu.

I'm afraid not, except on the very bus station. If matkahuolto.info had the possibility of listing all services on certain bus stop, I'd be very delighted.

Some useful links:

HSL/HRT and their Trip Planner
Turku/Åbo public transport and their Trip Planner
Tampere Public Transport and their Trip Planner
Koiviston Auto-yhtymä (Концерн "Приморский Автобус")
Joensuu trip planner
ExpressBus
Matkahuolto timetable search lite
Onnibus
Journey.fi (by Finnish Transport Agency, should in theory work as a nation-wide trip planner in all modes of public transport, be it road, rail or air-based)

Max · 29 Elokuu 2012

ultrix sanoi:
In the future, the municipal planning-based model used in Гелсингфорсъ, Таммерфорсъ and Або city transit will most likely be implemented in many other bigger cities as well.

Käytätkö tarkoituksella tsaarinaikaisia, ruotsiin perustuvia nimiä suurimmista kaupungeistamme? Nykyvenäläinen tuntee nämä nimillä Хельсинки, Тампере ja Турку, jos on tunteakseen.

ultrix · 29 Elokuu 2012

Max sanoi:
Käytätkö tarkoituksella tsaarinaikaisia, ruotsiin perustuvia nimiä suurimmista kaupungeistamme?

Kyllä, käytän tarkoituksella.

petrotrain · 29 Elokuu 2012

ultrix sanoi:
I'm not sure if I understood you completely but:

every bus in Finland includes seats, perhaps with the exception of airport terminal buses which operate only within airport premises

reserving a seat is never mandatory on any bus, only on long-distance trains (all but regional trains, which marked in timetables with H-prefix).

I meant the second point. 1st point can be attributed to Russia, too.:smile:

The other possible model in local and regional transport is concession model, where the government will issue a charter through competition, where the lowest-costing bid with the best level of service will be granted the exclusive rights on certain routes or areas

:shock:This system working in many russian cities and regions, incl. Russian Karjala

On the other hand, the law requires the passengers to use seat belts if seat belts have been installed on the bus.

In the Russia too. In the Russia after 2010 buses do not have seat belts may not work on long-distance routes (more than 50 km). In Russia in the absence of handrails is forbidden to transport passengers standing. Also prohibited carriage of standing passengers, if it does not provide the design bus (minibus).

The two rules are in conflict, since the standees obviously can't use seat belts.

:lol: I thought only in Russian laws are contradictory.:mrgreen:

Paljon kiitoksia / Tack så mycket, ultrix!

Max · 29 Elokuu 2012

ultrix sanoi:
Kyllä, käytän tarkoituksella.

Eikö muuten Helsingin nimessä pitäisi silloin olla vanhanmallinen pisteellinen i? En ole tästä ihan varma, mutta muistelen nähneeni sen aikalaisdokumenteissa vain muodossa Гельсiнгфорсъ.

hmikko · 29 Elokuu 2012

petrotrain sanoi:
I meant the second point. 1st point can be attributed to Russia, too.:smile:

Yes, sorry, I was wrong in my first reply about the long-distance bus tickets including a seat. I use trains much more than buses, so I guess I was instinctively assuming the same practice on the buses.

The article I read about exceeding the rated capacities said that the most frequent problem are the school buses. The law requires the municipality to provide transportation for pupils if their commute to school is over 5 km long one way. In the more urban locations, this means a free pass on the general public transportation, but if that's not available, the municipality has to provide a school bus or taxi. Obviously the kids are expected to be in school on time, so a driver can't really refuse new passengers even if the bus is already over capacity.

petrotrain · 29 Elokuu 2012

Obviously the kids are expected to be in school on time, so a driver can't really refuse new passengers even if the bus is already over capacity.

This is practised in Russia, too (incl. Russian Karjala). In Russian Karelia there are places where there's only school buses.
For comparison:
Map of school routes of Russian Karjala (Russian only)
Map of long-distance and local buses in Russian Karjala (Russian only)